‘Hacks’ stars Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder on their ‘darker turn’ and taking risks on season 4

Why Jean Smart wasn’t shocked Hacks won the Best Comedy Emmy — and why Hannah Einbinder was ‘stoked’ to explore a throuple

Interview by Gerrad Hall
Illustration by Jaya Nicely

After watching them betray and blackmail each other on season 3 of Hacks, it’s a joy to walk into a room occupied by Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder where there’s no tension — just cheerful hellos, hugs, and a cup of jelly beans.

Huddled together in a West Hollywood hotel for a day full of press ahead of the season 4 premiere of Hacks, the two have a lot to celebrate, coming off an Outstanding Comedy Series win at the 2024 Emmys — but they’re also a bit guarded, careful to not say too much about what’s to come on season 4, as Smart’s Deborah Vance gets to live out her dream of hosting her own late-night show…with Ava as her head writer whether she likes it or not.

The big question, of course, is how — if at all — they can end their feud much less be civil. So far this season, there have been practical jokes the likes of which required mandatory sensitivity training for everyone on the late-night series, a public confrontation at a party thrown by media company CEO Bob Lipka (Tony Goldwyn) — yep, the same one Deborah slept with in season 3 prior to landing the hosting job — a wild trip to Vegas, and more.

Now, the series welcomes comedy legend Carol Burnett, playing herself in a fortuitous encounter with Deborah when she needs some life- and career-saving advice.

Grab some jelly beans and dig into Smart and Einbinder’s conversation with The Awardist, as they look back on their big Emmys win, reflect on that season 3 finale shocker, and break down the action so far in season 4.

THE AWARDIST: Take me back to the Emmys and that Best Comedy win. Scale of 1 to 10, how shocked were you? What were those feelings in that moment?

HANNAH EINBINDER: It was crazy.

JEAN SMART: I was 10 in pleasure. I was not shocked at all.

EINBINDER: Okay! Say that!

SMART: I don’t know why. I just thought, I wasn’t surprised at all that we won. I was surprised that everybody was surprised.

Was there a gut instinct, an intuition, something you felt?

SMART: Frankly, I felt like The Bear had had some, not controversy, but I mean people had discussed so much, the fact that — it’s a fabulous show — but is it a comedy? Who else were we up against?

Abbott Elementary, Only Murders in the Building…

SMART: Love both those shows.

EINBINDER: Love Abbott so much.

SMART: I do too. But I was… Who beat us before?

The Bear.

SMART: The Bear once.

EINBINDER: Bear and Ted Lasso perhaps.

SMART: Oh, and Ted Lasso. But Ted‘s out of the picture, so.

Well, not anymore.

EINBINDER: They’re coming back.

SMART: They’re coming back?

Season 4. It’s official.

EINBINDER: Yeah. I was pretty surprised. I think I’m not in a place of expecting it. So I think I was surprised, but I was really stoked because I felt like we were getting so much love this season and all, but of course, this season it felt like people were really being like-

SMART: I think that was one of the reasons. People kept saying, “Oh my God, this is the best season yet.”

Well, obviously, lots of people were thrilled in that moment. Before we dig into season 4, let’s go back to the very beginning. Hannah, what do you remember about your first day on set filming your first scripted series ever? Do you recall those emotions, whatever they might’ve been?

EINBINDER: I think we were on location and I was just trying to not get fired. I think I was like, let’s sneak on by. I’ll hide behind Jean — that’ll help. And then I’ll just be chill and I they’ll let me stay. So that was kind of my thought really. And I was meeting Carl (Clemons-Hopkins) for the first time. I met Mark (Indelicato) for the first time. And I believe it was the day we shot the Rolls-Royce breaking down and Deborah taking the helicopter. And then perhaps even the pizza shop as well, was our first day. Or perhaps that was the second day.

SMART: It was?

EINBINDER: Maybe it was the second day, but-

SMART: When did we shoot the interview scene?

EINBINDER: The interview scene was much later.

The job interview in Deborah’s house?

EINBINDER: Yes. The great thing was I didn’t really have time to be feeling much because I think the first week of my acting career, season 1 of Hacks, was a scene where I’m getting the sprinklers turned on me, a scene where a helicopter is taking off in the desert, I’m sweating with chocolate on myself, I have an intimate scene. I really had kind of like a crash course-

SMART: Shot from guns.

EINBINDER: Yeah. Shot out of a cannon. I did a lot of the things that you ever do kind of in the first week. So just kind of survival and a huge inferiority complex — really insecure, really like “There’s no way this is going to last.” But, yeah, hell yeah, made a lot of progress, I think. My therapist would agree, I think. We’ve definitely talked about that.

Was there still a lot of like learning marks and all of that kind of stuff?

EINBINDER: For sure. Learning truly everything. Crazy.

Jean, on the flip side, obviously not your first series when this started, but can you look back from now to season 1 and see in terms of your acting skills, is there anything different that you note about how this show has challenged, pushed you and your acting?

SMART: Well, I mean, I just enjoy it so much. I enjoy this character so much. I remember the day that I met Paul and Jen and Lucia. I can’t believe I was so cheeky. (Laughs) And we were sitting across the table from each other and they had offered me the role — I knew that going in — and we met and sat down, pleasantries, and I said, “Well, you’re right. I’m perfect for this part.” Thank God they laughed. But it was everything. It checked every box. If someone had said, “What would your ideal series be? What would your ideal character be in a series?” And it checked every box. It was such a gift.

In the process, I think you’ve won every TV award out there that exists for your performance.

SMART: I had to sleep with a lot of people. Let me tell you.

Sure. And in those regards, you’ve experienced some incredible highs with the series in the midst of some very personal lows. In the midst of all of that, your husband passing, a heart procedure last year. How did this show help you get through those things, knowing there’s something to come back to? I have to imagine in some ways therapeutic, that there was a cast and crew waiting for you when you were ready.

SMART: I felt a huge responsibility to the show, even though it was season 1 when I lost my husband. They could not have been kinder and more accommodating. I had five days of work left on season 1 when he died unexpectedly. And they said, “We have to finish.” I said, “No, of course, of course. I understand.” They said, “We could spread it out over a couple of weeks. You could take a couple of weeks off and then do it or do it all at once right now.” And I just said, “No, let’s just do it now.” I think because I was still kind of in shock. And I was getting through it until the third day, I think — second or third day — and it was the funeral scene (for Ava’s dad), and I don’t have anxiety attacks in my life, but I definitely started to have one. And I said, “I don’t know if I can do it. I don’t know if I can do it.” And I believe I took an Ativan (laughs) and we did it. And it turned out to be really a lot of fun and a fabulous scene.

And fulfilling in a way that you didn’t expect, I presume.

SMART: I don’t know. I try not to put too much meaning on those events. But yeah, it was really fun. I thought it was a brilliant scene. Because I mean, who hasn’t thought that when they’ve gone to a funeral? How many times have you sat there and they go, “Anybody want to get up and say anything about George?” And people are like (staring and looking around), and then it’s just so awkward the longer the pause goes on… It should be structured in a much different way. So yeah, it probably was cathartic to a certain extent. And again, it was, I thought, a brilliant scene. I would love to do that if I had the guts at a funeral. (Laughs)

Well, as we start to get into season 4, I’m curious, did either of you, did you go back and watch season 3? Was there anything you wanted to revisit of that before you dug into this season?

EINBINDER: I only rewatched that final scene just because I love it, frankly, first and foremost, because it’s so exhilarating to watch, but also because it really seamlessly flows into the first part of season 4.

SMART: It’s amazing how seamless it was since it was six months in between, something like that.

EINBINDER: Yeah. Maybe more.

So far, the first four episodes have aired, and it’s really been quite a rollercoaster between Deborah and Ava. What have you enjoyed about getting to be at odds with each other? Because I know that the two of you are quite friendly, but when those cameras are on, what’s the personal thrill in those kinds of scenes for you?

EINBINDER: Well, it’s fun when there’s some verbal sparring that we get to do.

SMART: Well, this is a little more than sparring this year. I think part of the enjoyment is that we realized we were taking it to a new level. Not positive that it was going to go over with our audiences, but I had faith that it would. But it was definitely a darker turn that we were taking. And I knew the writers would get us through it, but it was interesting to go that dark.

But you felt risky, perhaps?

SMART: A little bit. A little bit.

Was there a moment that feeling went away, saw where it was going, knew how it was going to play?

SMART: I like some of the practical jokes Deborah plays on her, because then I felt like, okay, so that’s still a little bit of the old dynamic.

EINBINDER: That I have to say, just as an aside, the scene with myself and Dan Bucatinsky in the office is an all-timer. Dan is such a f—ing icon. He’s so funny. “You don’t know who that man is.” I’m like, “Because you’re gay.” He’s like-

“You shouldn’t assume that.”

EINBINDER: “You shouldn’t assume sexual orientation.”…”You have a picture of you marrying a guy in your office.”…”You don’t know who that man is.” So funny. And it is fun to play the shock, surprise, embarrassment, and anger that leads to, of course, that big confrontation at Bob’s party. But yeah, look, sometimes we have to really be serious in getting in an actual fight and there’s no levity whatsoever, and that’s definitely intense. But I think Jean earlier said like, it’s easy to do those scenes because we have such a good relationship. I think if we weren’t so solid, it’d be a little like, Ooh, is this real?

SMART: Very uncomfortable.

If we’re listing the pros and cons to those scenes, is there anything in the con column about those scenes?

SMART: Only if they hadn’t worked. (Laughs)

Indeed. But I think what’s so great about what we’ve seen so far is there’s such an unpredictability to the proceedings. I feel like at any moment something can happened. There’s such a beautiful tension that’s been built here, and obviously you can feel tension, but the unpredictability, can you feel that in the moment as you’re working through these moments?

EINBINDER: Yeah.

SMART: I think so. And definitely when we read the script for the first time. Because I like to be surprised. I don’t want to know what’s coming. But no risk, no reward. That’s why this show has been doing so well.

EINBINDER: And half the time, we don’t really rehearse — we’ll just go right in with the cameras up and work the scene out as it comes. So we find a lot there. And Lucia obviously has a huge influence on our performances. And so we’re able to really have everything fresh and in the instant.

SMART: She knows exactly what she wants.

What do each of you think is at the core of this dynamic? Is there intimidation, naivete, fear of being alone? What is really for each of them, what keeps them like this?

EINBINDER: It’s I think their sense of humor. I think it’s the level they connect on. It is a frequency that few people can tap into. It’s like a language that only they speak. Their way of connecting is through humor. And it is so potent and there’s also the element of Ava not having a great relationship with her mom and DJ and Deborah not having the best relationship, where they’re able to kind of live that out with each other.

SMART: I marvel at the writing because until you said that, that moment just now, I thought, well, of course that’s right. You have a dysfunctional relationship with your mother; I have a dysfunctional relationship with my daughter. So it’s kind of puzzle pieces that are meant to go together. And I think that is a lot of, yes, definitely the sense of humor. I know that if somebody makes me laugh or if somebody gets my humor like that, I’m halfway in love. It’s just a very special thing. And I look forward to scenes where we can make each other laugh again instead of cry.

Last year, there was an episode — you and I talked about this a bit when you and Kaitlin Olson were on the podcast with me — her big scene, the roast. You didn’t particularly like the word that she uses, but you say it this season. Was there any like wringing arms, pulling, anything?

SMART: (Laughs) Oh, it so much fun.

Oh, you leaned in?

SMART: I did.

EINBINDER: It was so good. You were being so mean.

SMART: I did.

EINBINDER: “Yeah, why don’t you ask that little c— what happened?” It’s so good.

SMART: I thought that was a brilliant choice for Kaitlin because she thinks that this is going to be funny. And of course, we’re all looking at her going, oh my God, she’s going to bomb. She runs it by her. It’s like, you sure you want to? It’s like, oh my God, this girl doesn’t know what she’s doing, and she kills. Perfect Hacks flip.

And I’m just now remembering when we had that conversation that I had said, “You know, though, it makes sense because it’s probably a word she’s heard her mom say a lot.” And we’ve finally get-

SMART: No, but I don’t think Deborah talks that way very often.

You really have to piss her off.

SMART: I had to save it for (Ava).

And Hannah, you call her “Bitchabod Crane”

SMART: (Laughs) I love that! Oh my god!

EINBINDER: Bitchabod Crane up here. So funny.

At the end of the first episode, the photo shoot, and that exchange between you: “You broke my heart. … You broke mine first. … The second it’s done, I’ll never speak to you again. … Good.” The fact that neither of you get to look at each other during that moment, it’s kind of chilling. It gave me goosebumps.

SMART: I think it was brilliant that they staged it that way. It’s sort of like when you have a conversation with someone, one of you is driving, one of you is in the backseat — it’s like they say, if you ever want to have a deep conversation with your teenager, have them in the backseat, you drive, they’ll spill their guts, but they won’t if they’re looking at you or sitting next to you. But there’s something much more impactful about it for some reason having to say it quietly to each other because there were in a room full of people — and I think it’s absolutely sincere on both their parts.

EINBINDER: Oh my God. I was so devastated. That was one of those ones where it really did feel super visceral shooting that — like, I really did feel that in the depths of my being.

There are some good laughs here in the midst of all of that tension. The Vegas episode is just a riot — the racetrack, poker, strip club, getting detained and put in handcuffs. But now wait, have you ever had a lap dance, Jean?

SMART: Uh, no.

Oh, so that was a first.

SMART: I was offered one once by a gal, but politely declined.

EINBINDER: And Lindsay, the actress who gave Jean a lap dance, is in Anora.

SMART: I just found that out.

EINBINDER: Yes! She’s a queen.

Lauren Weedman, by the way, she’s always funny, but this particular episode, hysterical.

EINBINDER: Oh, my fucking God.

SMART: I’m so glad she gets to do all this stuff.

EINBINDER: It’s so good. She’s so good.

I know she has her lines, but does she just get to let loose at some point?

SMART: Kind of. Yeah, a little bit like Jane (Smith). She’ll kind of just free form.

EINBINDER: She’ll just like continue the scene after it’s done.

There are some really brilliant moments there. Speaking of brilliant, the panic attack, not just that the panic attack happened, but who helps Deborah through the panic attack. In episode 4, the lovely Carol Burnett. Now you’ve worked with Carol before, on Hot in Cleveland, where she played your mom. But this one had different meaning for you?

SMART: Very. And that was so long ago. It was such a treat to have her. There’s nobody like her in terms of comedy and just being an incredibly cool human being. If I can be like her or Betty White when I’m in my 90s, I’ll be a very, very happy lady.

EINBINDER: I was there that day watching at monitors, watching the scene, and it was really cool to see Deborah being like the little sis for once.

SMART: Yeah, looking up to somebody. Tell me what to think.

EINBINDER: It was really cute.

SMART: I’m having stage fright for the first time in my life. She wouldn’t admit that to anybody except somebody like Carol Burnett.

Have either of you ever had stage fright?

SMART: Oh, terrible.

It’s something that used to happen or you still have it?

SMART: Well, we’ll find out. I’m going to do a play in New York this summer. Haven’t been on stage for a while, but yeah, it was debilitating for a little while. It’s a terrible feeling.

EINBINDER: It’s really horrible. I definitely have had it. I’m always nervous before a show, for sure. But for me, it melts the second I get out there. I just see the faces.

What’s so brilliant about that moment, though, is the advice and how it plays out. I should have seen it coming, who the one person is she focuses on and does the show for. And that’s one of those moments where I’m talking about that rollercoaster of the season that it’s like they’re at odds, but then you get that and you’re like, ugh, come on, you two, like rallying. We want these two to find their way. And you wonder like, will either of them ever get out of their own way? Is that a fair assessment of where we might see things continue from here? Can they get out of their own way?

SMART: That’s a good question.

EINBINDER: I think that is the hope for these characters. I think whether or not they do is to be seen.

SMART: Because the thing is, they have now finally kind of been raw with each other, where there’s really no kind of going back from that. Even if they still bicker or fight or have a misunderstanding or something, there’s no going back. What do I need to do to apologize? What do I need to do to make this okay? I just risked my life trying to save a total stranger because I thought it was you.

Referring there to a scene we will get to in a future episode — it’s incredible. Hannah, in addition to all of the mayhem, Ava becomes part of a throuple. How it starts — at the Pleasure Chest with you waving around a dildo — but when you found out this was going to be a thing for her, what were you most curious about with this relationship?

EINBINDER: I think how we would explore it in the show. I never could have guessed that we would meet at the Pleasure Chest, but I was really pleased with how it turned out. There are a couple crew members of ours who are (polyamorous) and they were really stoked about the storyline. So I was really happy to hear that from them especially. I think it was really beautifully done. I think it was really true to life and cool. And I also think it’s interesting to turn it on its head of like, Ava’s actually the one whose kind of doing this to get off and these people are actually interested in something beyond sex, which I think is a really important thing to represent because I think that’s true for a lot of people. So yeah, I was stoked that we handled it in the way we did.

We touched on Carol Burnett as a guest star. Also, this season Jimmy Kimmel, Randy Newman, Julianne Nicholson coming up, and more to come. It seems a bit of an embarrassment of riches this season because I wondered going in, how much we would see of Deborah interviewing guests? But what I kind of love is that there’s very little of it.

SMART: It’s a very high compliment (that so many people want to be on the show).

And it’s for very important reasons that people like Jimmy are on.

SMART: Oh, my God, the stuff he said. I don’t know if they put it in this one line he has. It’s so shocking.

I didn’t know he had it in him, that entire scene.

SMART: I didn’t either. He’s one of the sweetest men in the world. But he’s just so damn funny. And he was having a good time. He was nervous at first, and then he just had a blast.

Jean, break a leg on Broadway. Hannah, what are you looking forward to this summer?

EINBINDER: I’m going to do a movie. I can’t say anything else. (Laughs)

This interview has been edited for clarity and length.

Listen to the full interview with Smart and Einbinder on The Awardist podcast, below.

Emmy nomination predictions: Limited/Anthology Series, lead actor and actress

They might be limited in quantity but not in quality. From true-crime (Monsters, Apple Cider Vinegar) and fictional crime (The Penguin, Adolescence, Dope Thief) to emotional human drama (Dying for Sex), there’s no shortage of compelling limited or anthology series this year. Here are the shows and lead performances that EW critic Kristen Baldwin thinks will make the cut when nominations are announced on July 15.

LIMITED OR ANTHOLOGY SERIES

Adolescence (Netflix)
Dying for Sex (FX on Hulu)
Monsters: The Lyle and Erik Menendez Story (Netflix)
The Penguin (Max)
La Máquina (Hulu)

LEAD ACTRESS IN A LIMITED OR ANTHOLOGY SERIES OR TV MOVIE

Cate Blanchett, Disclaimer (Apple TV+)
Kaitlyn Dever, Apple Cider Vinegar (Netflix)
Cristin Milioti, The Penguin (HBO)
Michelle Williams, Dying for Sex (Hulu)
Renee Zellweger, Bridget Jones: Mad About the Boy (Peacock)

LEAD ACTOR IN A LIMITED OR ANTHOLOGY SERIES OR TV MOVIE

Gael García Bernal, La Máquina (Hulu)
Cooper Koch, Monsters: The Lyle and Erik Menendez Story (Netflix)
Colin Farrell, The Penguin
Brian Tyree Henry, Dope Thief (Apple TV+)
Kevin Kline, Disclaimer

Read Kristen’s full nominations predictions here:
Outstanding Drama, Comedy, and Limited Series
All the acting contenders from Abbott to The Pitt

Check out more from EW’s The Awardist, featuring exclusive interviews, analysis, and our podcast diving into all the highlights from the year’s best in TV, movies, and more.

Oughta Get a Nod: Aaron Pierre for Rebel Ridge

Classically trained British actor Aaron Pierre brought Shakespearean intensity to his role in the Netflix film Rebel Ridge as former Marine Terry Richmond. Terry inadvertently finds himself in a standoff against corrupt small-town police led by Chief Sandy Burnne (Don Johnson). Nuances in Pierre’s performance shine through, especially in the moments Terry realizes he has no way around a conflict and must instead barrel through it. The film’s pinnacle shoot-em-up scene is what you might expect in a confrontation between a straight-laced military man squaring off against stock villains, but Pierre’s thoughtful, measured response in the run-up to the bloody climax lifts the entire movie. Known for roles in Barry Jenkins’ The Underground Railroad series and voicing the titular big cat in the director’s Disney animated prequel film Mufasa: The Lion King, Pierre will next be seen starring as intergalactic cop John Stewart in HBO’s DC Comics series Lanterns. —Debbie Day, News Editor

Emmys Flashback